The
Years 1966-1972
Great Articles written by Bruce Stark
These articles are posted here with author,
Mr. Bruce Stark's permission.
Reproduction or publication of any of these articles without his permission is
prohibited.
If you want to know more, buy his book
The Pasadena Days
The
Years 1966-1972
Auto Mag Parts ? --- August 2009
An Interview with Max Gera & the Auto Mag --- April 2009
Five Ways To Break Your Auto Mag --- September 1999
Auto Mag Cartridges --- March 1999
Auto Mag Parts? --- August 2009
by Bruce Stark and Mark Miller 8/24/09
Approximately 6 weeks ago while I was in the midst of completing the
purchase of the Clint 2 pistol, I received an E-mail from Walter Sanford with the attached grouping of pictures. Subsequently Walter and I talked
about what the components in the pictures were and what place they may have had or not had in history of the Auto Mag if any. Walter was not sure as to
the significance of the pieces and was not sure whether they were even attached to the advent of the Auto Mag. It was evident to me that some of
the components, especially the bolt configurations, could be related to Auto Mag experimentation. Walter offered to sell the components to me with some
other related pieces however, I decided to facilitate the sale of these pieces to another collector with the understanding that I could publicize
the components for all to enjoy with input from Max Gera and an article produced by someone I considered an expert on the history of the Auto
Mag, Bruce Stark. I thought the timing could not be any better than now with Bruce' efforts to reconnect Max to the Auto Mag world and the selling of
Auto Mag historical treasures by Walter all coming together at the same time. The following are Mr. Stark's observations along with Max Gera' input
on the components Walter offered to me. Photographs by Walt Sanford.
Mark Miller
AUTO MAG PARTS ?
By Bruce Stark
24 AUG 09'
Recently Walt Sanford discovered this accumulation of parts in the back of
his safe. One wonders how many other discoveries there will be in the future. Walt believes some of these parts may be pre-prototype parts made
for conceptual discussion and experiments, but for what gun ?
Before these parts get buried into someone's collection these photographs are offered for review along with a brief discussion of each part.
I spoke with Max Gera the evening of 23 August 2009 to ask him what he knew of these parts and particularly the frame and slides. Max gets excited
every time some of his old work resurfaces. Old memories kick in and he gave me a full rundown on these parts.
Max took me through the progression of his experiments as best as he could remember.
His first idea was the P-38 design where he took two P-38 frames, cut them in half and re-welded them back together into one frame and created a crude
slide for it. This frame was pictured for a while on one of the many Auto Mag web sites. Max then experimented with a rotating bolt design.
Max's second idea was to place the rotating bolt into a frame with an internal spring instead of the P-38 side placed springs. He believes he
made at least two of these frames and a few slides. Because there was no room for the spring to compress Max abandoned this design.
The frame and slide at the bottom of the picture is the second of the two prototypes Max built using this design. The slide below it is the slide
made for the first attempt of this design.
The rough cut "frame" at the top of the picture is not something Max has ever seen before. It would be nice to see if it has the magazine hole cut
through it.
Below the "frame" are two bolt carriers and two bolts that were experiments for this design.
The parts on the right side are a different story.
The cocking piece on the right is a production cocking piece, note the flares. It may be un-machined or the aluminum master used to produce the
molds used to cast the production cocking pieces but with no description from Walt, it is hard to tell.
Below the cocking piece is a piece that was welded to the bottoms of the XP barrel extensions that has the straight cut design, similar to the P-38,
that was later changed to the dove-tail design. This is from the Barbasiewicz time period and is not from the Max Gera era as Max did NO
welding on the gun.
The magazine is from the era of the Lovendale design team. It would have been used on the #2 or #3 guns seen in the POWER Brochure and multiple
advertisements. Note the 1911 style hold-open design which was later abandoned. It would be nice to see the reverse side as a factory directive
dictated that all XP magazines have the follower pin slot cut into the magazine.
Max says that the threaded barrel and the threaded bolt were made by Gross Instruments.
To continue with the history, Max went back to the side mounted recoil springs and perfected his double camming bolt. He then built the first
working Auto Mag. Max says when he originally built it it had no rib. Max says he may have installed a Gross Instruments barrel onto this gun as one
of the last things he did on the gun. Max (with help) then produced a set of drawings that were sent to Gross Instruments.
The first gun Gross Instruments made wouldn't cycle so Max added the accelerator and bolt rotation spring just to get the gun to cycle for the
rocket scientists now taking over the engineering of the gun.
Back to the parts, the hold open is one that Max made to be used with this design.
The accelerator block is for the #2 and #3 guns and the accelerator is unfinished and it appears to be for either a Max gun or the #2 or #3 gun.
The hammer could be for anything. The picture doesn't show enough to make an evaluation.
Gross Instruments went on to make a few more prototypes before the Lovendale design took on the project in late 1970.
So here we have Max Gera's second attempt at a rotating bolt designed Auto Mag with some extra prototype parts. A Gross Instruments Barrel and bolt.
A Lovendale era magazine, accelerator and block, a Barbasiewicz barrel extension slide piece and a production cocking piece. Also a rough cut of a
frame and an unknown hammer.
There was a rumor in 1977 that Ed O'Neil would tell about how Bob Barbasiewicz had redesigned the Auto Mag and had given or sold the design to
Harry. I would like to see this gun resurface too.
An Interview with Max Gera & the Auto Mag --- April 2009
by Bruce Stark 4/27/09
First, who is Max Gera ?
In the March 1970 issue of Guns & Ammo magazine, Jeff Cooper
twice credits Max Gera as the designer of the Auto Mag and refers to him as Auto
Mag Corp.s Design and Engineering Manager.
Max was also named as co-inventor of the Auto Mag on the first patent
application which was later abandoned. Maxs
name didnt appear on the final patent.
In October of 1970, Max sold off
his interests in the Auto Mag and left Harry Sanford.
After Auto Mag Corp. declared
bankruptcy in May of 1972, Max was blamed by some for causing Auto Mag to fail.
These were mostly just rumors. However
in a letter to Deputy Ed Lippert in July of 1972, Jeff Cooper of Guns &
Ammo explained why Auto Mag Corp. went bankrupt.
The letter blamed Max and typified the type of rumors that were flying
around at the time. Max has asked me
to remove this letter from this work as it is inflammatory, libelous
and damaging to my reputation.
Max was being used as a
scapegoat. It should be noted that
that the bankruptcy happened 18 months after Max left Auto Mag.
Max only went to the
Over the years rumor had it that
Max was deported back to
Harry Sanford would be cursed for
the remainder of his life by people asking him who had invented the Auto Mag, he
or Max Gera. Harry would usually
respond by saying, Max was just a guy who worked for me.
After the interview I will tell of how I located / stumbled upon Max Gera. Now on to the interview.
An Interview with Max Gera,
April 27th, 2009, Max Gera and Bruce Stark.
Q
What is your given name and what name do you use ?
A
The name is
Q
When and where were you born ?
A
I was born in
Q.
How and where did you acquire your gunsmithing skills ?
A.
As far as my gunsmithing skills, Ive always been good at playing with
mechanical things, with designing devices, and making things, whether it be
metal or wood. I built my first
muzzle loading rifle, actually it was a shotgun, when I was probably fifteen.
Actually I built it from scratch, using -- I believe it was -- a Jeep
steering wheel tube for the barrel, and I actually made the action from scratch.
Q.
Where did you first work after
coming to the
A.
Once I came to the
Q.
How did you first meet Harry Sanford and how did you end up working for
him ?
A.
It was shortly after I got married,
Frank Pachmayr called me, gave me a big speech of how proud he was of my job,
and gave me a ten cents an hour raise, I considered that an insult and I quit.
Through an acquaintance that I had, I was told that Harry Sanford was
looking for a gunsmith in his
Q.
When did you first hear about the
Auto Mag ?
A.
Ah, you got a trick question here. When
did you first hear and start to work on the 44 AMP?
Well, I never heard of the 44 AMP, because it never existed.
What happened was at one point, and I believe it was either very late
1968 or early 1969, give or take a couple of months, Harry and I were talking
about the fact that nobody made a 44 magnum automatic pistol, and of course as a
braggart guy I said, Well, I can do it.
I did a certain amount of
research on this subject. There are
so many pistols that try to use a rim cartridge, like I believe the Smith and
Wesson Model 52 and the Colt MK111 in 38 special.
They all seemed to have problems functioning with rim cartridges to be
fed out of a magazine. So with that,
I simply came up with the idea of taking a 30-06 cartridge case or a 308 and cut
it to exactly the same length as a 44 magnum case, and essentially have an exact
44 magnum cartridge rimless so it will have less problems feeding from a
magazine.
At that point I had no idea about
the article that Guns & Ammo ran a few years earlier showing the
picture and actually that cartridge. Somebody
else had the same idea a few years earlier.
Q.
When did you start working on the
Auto Mag and how did the work progress ?
A.
I began working on the Auto Mag I believe again probably in the early
1969 or very late 1968. One of the
first things that I did was try to get an idea of what size the grip will feel
to hold the cartridge. And thats
when I took the famous two P-38 frames that I cut up and welded together to the
correct size, just to get an idea of how the thing will feel.
Then I had pretty much a blank
mind, I dont know if it was weeks or months, before I decided that such a big
cartridge, such a powerful cartridge should be handled by a rotating bolt.
Once I got the concept I probably did the first sketches in a period of a
few weeks or months, and over the next several months I built an entire
prototype at the
After several months of working
and making all of the parts, I completed the first prototype, which was rather
crude, and Id still like to know what happened to it.
The first prototype actually fired and cycled the first time out.
I fired it I believe from a vise. It
ejected didnt feed the second cartridge because I had no magazine, but it
did eject the round from the first time. After
a couple of other trials, I actually broke the hammer.
At that point I was convinced
enough that the basic concept of the overall design was a viable design.
Then I told Harry that I needed some help, and we needed to get some
mechanical drawings done, and then actually build some prototypes as in a tool
room with a machine shop setting. And
pretty much thats what we did. It
took several months to actually have a complete set of drawings based on my
original handmade prototype.
Then we hired Gross Instruments,
and I believe they were commissioned to make three or four pistols.
They actually had the ones that they made, if there are any surviving,
the blank surviving. They are very
easy to spot because the frame was made from a round blank, like if somebody
sliced a big piece of 4140 big enough to make a frame, inch and a half thick,
and they had an EDM slot going all the way through, and the entire frame was
then cut around the position of that slot.
At this point here, when we had
the first pistol completed from the mechanical drawing, the pistol simply
wouldnt work. I spent several
weeks, firing after firing after firing. The
pistol would fire but it simply would not cycle.
At one point I decided that since
I didnt know why it was not cycling, I decided to temporarily make people
happy because everybody was breathing down my back.
I added the accelerator to it, and the accelerator did make the pistol
cycle.
Now that left us with another
problem. The original bolt on both
the first one that I made myself and the prototype that we had built by Gross
Instruments, the bolt had a dual action cam.
The pin that goes to the ring in the frame caused the bolt to open on
recoil, and it also made the bolt close as it was moving forward.
This presented a problem that the motion of the bolt and the motion of
the receiver they call it now barrel extension -- had to be perfectly
synchronized so the bolt wouldnt start turning until after it had cleared the
lugs in the receiver.
I played around with that for
about a month and I could not come up with a satisfactory method, so finally I
gave up on that one too. I
introduced into the system a little coil spring to rotate the bolt.
At that point we had a pistol that would both cycle and close reliably.
Even so I wasnt too thrilled with the spring idea, I decided that
would have to be good enough for the time being.
Q.
How did the investors affect the project ?
A.
Once the investors started showing up, the entire operation became almost
like a pack of hyenas. People from
every angle from everywhere showed up at the store, and every one of them had a
better idea on how to make the gun. Everybody
was an expert on one field or another, none of them had ever made a gun, but
they were all expert at something. Most
of them were experts in sophisticated aerospace technology.
Quite frankly after a month or
two of this, having to defend myself against every single new person showing up,
I sold my stock with the Auto Mag. I
sold it to Jerry Ognibene, and I got out of it.
So essentially the investor thing pretty much spelled the beginning of me
leaving the company.
Q.
What guns existed when you left Auto Mag ?
A.
When I worked on the project there
were essentially two pistols. There
was the first one that I had made, the one that I made in the
At the time that I left I do not
believe we yet had received a magazine for the pistol. So
I did not get involved. I may be a
little, how can I say, unclear on this one, but I dont remember that we had a
working magazine at the time. At the
time that I left the project essentially we had a pistol, the one that you see
on the cover of Guns & Ammo magazine, I believe the March issue of
1970. This pistol cycled, fired,
extracted, ejected a cartridge, and it had a working safety, and it had a
holdopen device that would work by hand. I
dont know if it would work with a magazine because we did not have any
magazine at the time. So that was
pretty much the extent of my involvement with the pistol.
At that point I left.
The way I left in there, quite frankly I felt very exasperated because I
got to the point that I believed that Harry was willing to listen to anyone
except me. The only thing that a
person would have to do to ingratiate himself with Harry was to tell him that he
did not agree with me. So thats
how I came to the point of no longer working with Harry.
Q.
How much of the design of the Auto Mag was yours and how much was
Harrys ?
A.
HARRY HAD ABSOLUTELY NO INPUT IN THE DESIGN OF THE AUTO MAG.
He had no clue whether it used a
turning bolt, or a folding block or a rotating slide.
The only input that Harry had in the original design was that he told me
that he liked very much the grip angle on the 1911 pistol.
And I kept that angle to go along with him.
The entire concept of the rotating bolt, the short recoil rotating bolt,
the ring around the bolt, was all entirely mine.
Q.
Did Harry do any of the physical work to create the prototype gun ?
A.
No, Harry did not do any kind of machining on any drawings or anything to
do with the pistol. About his only
contribution was one of his cigar boxes that I used to make the grips on the
prototype on the cover of Guns & Ammo magazine.
Q.
I believe your next endeavor was to create the Gera Double.
How did that go ?
A.
Shortly after I sold my stock on the Auto Mag, I immediately opened a
gunshop with the idea of doing general gunsmithing.
Within a few months of that I decided that I should probably try to have
a product again on my own. I
didnt know what I was going to do, and I decided to do something that I
thought, very mistakenly so, that it would be easy enough to make, because it
required very little design and development.
Thats when I started making the
The amount of labor involved was prohibitive. So once I was only supporting the production of the rifles, if you want to call it production, with the general gunsmithing that I was doing from my shop, and also on a wholesale level for different gun shops. And those were the days I believe that the economy started going down the tubes. And pretty soon the gunsmithing work started running out and so did orders for the rifle, and pretty much I went under. And that was the end of Gera Arms. This happened somewhere toward the middle to the end of 1971. Once in a while, you see one of my rifles sold or for sale on some of the gun trading web sites
Q.
What other jobs have you had since the demise of the Gera Double ?
A.
That was about the time what I worked with Charter Arms in
Shortly after that I got involved
mostly working in machine shops, as tool and die maker, and designing production
machinery to manufacture different items, quite a variety of items, anywhere
from designing tooling to machine some of the large turbines that they were
doing for some of the atomic power plants in those days, all the way to
retooling a couple of sheet metal shops in the Philadelphia area in which they
were making up high speed production sheet metal machinery to produce gutter
spouts, air conditioning ducts and all kinds of the construction type sheet
metal products. I spend a few years
doing that.
And I spent pretty much the rest
of the time in the general type of work, except for a short period of time in
the late seventies to early eighties when I had my own boat company for a couple
of years, made a few sailboats. That
did not work out that well either.
Around 1985 I decided I was tired
of working in machine shops and making things, and I actually had a rather
strange career change. A friend of
mine suggested that I should try working at a car dealership.
So I actually sold cars for about six months and shortly after that I
became leasing and finance manager, and I did that until the early nineties.
At that point, as a byproduct of my experience in financing, I started my
own company involving the credit repair business, pretty much involving
disputing with credit bureaus and negotiating with creditors to improve
peoples credit report.
In the early years of that I
started developing software to run my own business and when my partner and I
split in 1993 I sold him one copy of my software for his own personal use.
And I continued to develop it. Well
it just so happened that shortly after the split he started selling franchises
and giving everybody a bootleg copy of the software that I had given him.
Well at this point with my previous experience my software was quite
nicely copy protected so they could load it on the computer but it wouldnt
work. So with every one of the
franchisees that he sold a franchise to, they ended up having to buy a working
copy of the software directly from me. And
I did quite well with that until the mid nineties.
I stayed in the same business
until around 1999. Business started
slowing down, I was getting older, and at that time I decided to close the shop,
to reduce the business down to a very very minimal base, and go into a
semi-retired state, which is what I have been doing for the last ten years.
Q.
What are you doing now ?
A.
Im pretty much in a semi-retired state.
Until I started finding out what was going on with the Auto Mag, I was
pretty much very happy to stay retired, do as little as possible, and simply
take care of and feed all my deer, and the squirrels, and all the other things.
And now I must say that after reading your book, and seeing all the
websites and finding out the incredible amount of splash that the Auto Mag has
done, I dont know, I may have to revise that thinking.
In 1984 I was plant manager of a
well-tooled machine shop in Folsom,
You probably remember what we
have talked about. Everybody wanted
to make changes to the pistol for no better reason than to say that they did
something different. The changes
that I wanted to make are the things that actually were needed from day one
because the pistol was not working properly.
By that point I had arrived to
the conclusion that the unreliable cycling of the action that needed the adding
of an accelerator was due to the fact that the bolt has insufficient mass.
The big slot that I used the bolt to cam, close and open, was actually
removing so much weight from the bolt that once you released the bolt from the
receiver it did not have enough momentum on its own.
Thats why it needed the accelerator to increase the speed so the bolt
would have the necessary energy. Also
the turning spring for closing of the bolt was a last minute kluge that I had to
use and that did not work very well.
I was convinced that I needed to
have the bolt to be closed in a positive way, similar to what happens when the
bolt carrier moves forward, slams the bolt against the cartridge, and turns in
one swift motion like on the M-16, and also as on some of the Auto Mag
spin-offs, such as the Desert Eagle
and the Wildey. I know they look
very different but they both use a rotary bolt system! This
brought me to the changes that I made to the pistol.
Essentially I eliminated the outside ring and I had a single internal cam
so the bolt had only one slot on the bottom, making the bolt considerably
heavier, and I modified the interphase between the bolt and the cocking piece in
such a manner that the cocking piece moving forward at the last minute moved,
turned the bolt, after the bolt had actually passed the locking lugs in the
receiver. This completely eliminated
the synchronization problems that I had on the early prototype.
Anyway I worked on the second
prototype for probably four or five months.
It didnt take me that long to do because I was able to recreate the
drawings from memory. The pistol was
very similar to the original. The
only visible difference was that I put the combat trigger guard with a reverse
curve on the front of the trigger guard rather than the streamlined curve, for a
better two hand hold. And anyway, I
had the pistol ready, finished, everything seemed to be working fine.
I loaded it one evening.
Oh, incidentally, one change that
I made on the pistol was that I made it for the 45
So one evening, probably in 1984
or early 1985, I was by myself in the shop, had a big bucket of sand, put a
round in the chamber, pulled the hammer back, pointed at the sand.
And then I said to myself, Do I want to go through this again?
I sat there holding the pistol for probably a solid five minutes.
I pulled the bolt back, ejected the round, put it in the case, and it has
stayed there ever since.
Q.
What would you like to say about your experiences with the Auto Mag ?
A.
How do I feel about my experience with the Auto Mag?
It was such an entire disaster, and it was something that could have been
done profitably if people had actually accepted the fact that when you want to
manufacture something you have to go through a step by step manufacturing
process. You cannot have a
production line based on the idea that you are going to have this shop making
that part, the other shop making a part, and the other guy making the other part
in his garage. And you cannot have
everybody involved trying to change something just so they can say, I did
that. And that was pretty much
the history of the Auto Mag. Incidentally,
it was with very great pleasure that I saw in your book all the constant
bickering between one guy to the next one, one guy wants the screws on the
inside, the other wants on the outside, one wants a thin rear site blade, the
other wants a thick one, and constantly making changes that serve absolutely no
purpose.
By the way one of the changes
that I saw I was appalled about. It
supposedly was one of the great improvements on it, that accelerator block. The
only thing it does is it prevents the accelerator from falling off once you
remove the slide. On the
I was just making a point that of
all of the changes that they did, none of them solved what the basic problem
with the pistol was. It was an
incomplete design that needed more work, but everybody completely avoided
touching that in any way, shape or form. Because
quite frankly the more Ive been reading your book and everything else, nobody
seems to have a clue of how that pistol works.
I would say this probably wraps it up on the concluding thought also.
Q.
After reading the book Auto Mag the Pasadena Days, what comments
or corrections do you have ?
A.
Quite frankly you did a fabulous job in there.
I dont think there is anything that I can add to the book except the
timing on the chapter one. I believe
you had it 1966 to 1972. O.K., I was
not even in the
Other than that, your book is
fabulous. I did get a kick out of
all those memos back and forth with Mark Lovendale and Bob Barbasiewicz.
That reminded me of an assembly line that I had at one time, putting
together some crimping tools with five or six women.
They were consistently fighting with each other about who got to use the
red screwdriver and who got to put the screws closer to her than the other one.
But thats why I got a kick out of that one there, as you can see,
constant bickering about totally irrelevant things that had absolutely nothing
to do with getting the pistol to work.
Q.
Any concluding thoughts ?
A.
In conclusion, after reading your book, yes, I do have the fire in the
belly. And under the right
circumstances I would definitely be interested in reviving the Auto Mag with all
of the good changes. I believe I can
probably come up with a perfectly working prototype in less than 6 months.
However, some things have not changed.
In order to produce it reliably with interchangeable parts, it will
require a very large pile of money. I
would say the biggest difference of opinion that we had in those days was that I
wanted to do real production tooling.
And at the time I had come up with an estimate of four million dollars,
1970 dollars, to set up a production facility to produce the Auto Mag that could
be sold and made a profit at the original price of $217.50.
Now Ive been out of the
machine shop business for many years now. I
know that there are a lot of more versatile computer machines and all of that.
However, you still have to have dedicated machinery to make most of the
parts in an efficient and inexpensive manner.
And I would guess right now that to put the pistol into production --
which by the way my original idea was about a thousand guns a month -- would
probably cost in the ten million dollar range.
Well, this is pretty much
answering all the questions. Although
I rambled a little bit, but what do you want from me.
Im talking about things that happened forty years ago.
And anything else you want to clarify, please call me.
And Ill talk to you soon. Bye.
[end
of interview]
Besides the May 1971 Guns
& Ammo article on the Gera Double there was also an article in the
August 1971 issue of Gun World about the Gera Double, titled The
Double Image by Tommy L. Bish. Two
months later in the October 1971 issue
of Gun World, page 6, there was a response to the article by Auto Mag
Corp. Here is that response
[emphasis added]:
SCATTER
SHOTS
PROTEST DEPARTMENT
In your article, The Double
Image. (August. 71, Tommy Bish
states that Max Gera is the inventor and patentee of the .44 magnum auto
pistol The reference to your
June 71 edition makes it clear that Bish is referring to the .44 Auto Mag.
Bish goes on to state that
The facts are as follows:
Harry W. Sanford, president of Auto Mag Corporation, had conceived how a
magnum automatic pistol might be designed long before Max
Gera accepted employment in 1966 as a gunsmith with Harry W. Sanford Firearms,
a retail firearms and sporting goods store owned and operated by Mr. Sanford.
Following Mr. Sanfords
direction,
All rights in the original patent
application were assigned to Auto Mag Corporation by Harry W. Sanford, their
sole owner.
Gerard D. Ognibene,
Executive Vice President. Auto
Mag Corporation,
In early January of 2009 I was
called by Mark Lovendale. Mark was
the Vice President Engineering & Manufacturing at Auto Mag from October
1970 to January 1971. Mark asked me
if I would rewrite the Wikipedia article on the Auto Mag as he felt it was full
of misinformation. I rewrote most of
it and Mark helped me get it posted.
On January 11th, 2009
I was contacted by Jon Gera. She
said she had just started a search for her father Max.
She hadnt seen him since 1982 and just saw my write-up about the Auto
Mag on Wikipedia and wanted to know all she could about him.
I sent her two copies of the book, Auto Mag the Pasadena Days as
it contains a picture of Max. I sent
one book for her and one for her brother, Max Jr.
In the next few weeks Jon would contact me with new information she had
found out about Max. One story
was that Harry Sanford had scoured all of
Late in the evening of February 6th,
2009 I announced to the wife that I was going to bed.
I was later woken up by her shaking me and thrusting the phone in my
face. She said, Youll take
this call, its Max Gera. Max
explained that he has a friend in
The conversation was a frenzy of
questions and answers. I told Max of
my contact with his daughter. He was
excited and said it was O.K. to call her and give her his phone number.
I called Jon and gave her the good news.
She was speechless. She
called Max and within a week or so she flew to
Max called and told me how very
very happy he was to be in touch with his daughter after so many years.
Not to take advantage of a situation, but not to miss an opportunity I
asked Max if he would agree to do an interview with me.
He agreed and I sent him a copy of my book to review before the
interview.
We spoke on the phone for over an
hour on several occasions before the interview.
Max revealed that he first named the gun Auto Max.
Somebody later said it should be Auto Mag.
Max said that was O.K. because the MA in Mag would be for Max and the G
in Mag would be for
Max is a good cook and says
Dont burn the garlic!
It stinks up the whole house !
by Bruce Stark
No one wants to be taken advantage of. As a buyer or a seller, most of us
have made our share of mistakes. One mistake is to buy or sell an item that we
do not have an intimate knowledge of. In some cases we may rely on the knowledge
of the other party to help us establish a fair price. Sometimes we later
discover that we have been cheated out of a valuable item or into an item that
is not worth what we thought it was. Knowledge is power.
How do you respond to a customer who has just said, "It's too bad that your
Lee Jurras gun is not an original Auto Mag"?
The word "original" has many different meanings. When this word is
thrown around during the bargaining process, as in the example above, the buyer
might be trying to get an upper hand through the implication that what you have
is un-original. It then logically follows that your gun could be a copy,
after-market, reproduction, or even a fake. In any case, you are now put on the
defensive.
What do you say to the seller who proclaims that his Pasadena Auto Mag is
original, and not one of those later made copies you see out there?
If the definition of "original" is taken to mean the first, then only
the Pasadena guns could be considered to be original Auto Mags. Literally
speaking, only the number one prototype gun could qualify as the first.
Ironically this particular gun was not made of stainless steel and may not fit
the definition of an Auto Mag.
Obviously an "original" Auto Mag would be a gun you would want as a
sound investment, and a gun that would command the highest price. Let's review
the facts.
Auto Mags were made from 1971 until the year 2000 using one of eleven different
names on the receiver.
1) AM, Pasadena, California
2) TDE, North Hollywood, California
3) TDE, El Monte, California
4) TDE, El Monte, California, High Standard
5) TDE, El Monte, California, Lee Jurras
6) TDE, El Monte, California, Kent Lomont
7) TDE / OMC, El Monte, California
8) AMT, Covina, California
9) AMC, Covina, California
10) AM, Irwindale, California
11) AM, Sturgis, South Dakota
The first nine names were manufactured under the direction, or with the
authorization of the inventor, Harry Sanford. The guns using the last two names
were manufactured under license of Harry's widow and son, Nadine and Walt
Sanford.
All of the above guns are original Auto Mags. "Original" here is
defined as authentic. After all, isn't that what a seller and a buyer need to
know before a fair sale can take place? If all of these guns are authentic, then
what are the guns that some have called fakes and why are some collectors still
gun shy about Auto Mags as investments?
GUNS AND PARTS THAT HAVE BEEN QUESTIONED
The following examples are listed in chronological order.
The prototype, experimental, engraved and .45ACP Auto Mags are well documented in the author's book Auto Mag: The Pasadena Days. These are not guns that collectors will readily encounter.
1. Barrels made to deceive - Pasadena
For all intents and purposes, only 6.5" .44AMP barrels were made during the Pasadena production run of Auto Mags. From time to time, barrels in different calibers and lengths have been found to have Pasadena markings. These are later made barrels that the guys in the back room marked for a buddy or a cash-wielding customer. The only reason to mismark a barrel is so it can be sold for more than it would otherwise.
2. Custom Barrels - Barbasiewicz
The North Hollywood guns were the next production run of Auto Mags. B & B Sales in North Hollywood, California distributed these El Monte manufactured guns. Bob Barbasiewicz was Harry's production manager and head of engineering at the time. He was one of three employees that Harry retained from the Pasadena factory. Bob had lost his own personal mill to the Pasadena bankruptcy auction, and perhaps because of this Harry allowed him to produce his own line of custom barrels. Bob sold these unmarked, highly polished barrels through B & B Sales. The lack of markings was probably due to the fact that, for warranty reasons, the owner of TDE, James C. Thomas III, did not want his company's name on Bobs' barrels. These barrels used Pasadena receivers (barrel extensions), accelerators and rear sight assemblies. Harry authorized the manufacture of these barrels and they were sold through the appropriate distributor. I believe it would be accurate to call these barrels "custom barrels."
3. Barrels made to deceive - Barbasiewicz
Occasionally a Barbasiewicz barrel is found to have Pasadena or North Hollywood markings. If the guys in the back room marked one of these barrels, then the barrel should be considered "made to deceive."
4. Mismatch of barrel to frame - High Standard
In April of 1974, High Standard commissioned about 135 Auto Mags to be built using the High Standard logo. Don Mitchell was High Standard's CEO at the time. Don told the author that only 135 "H" prefix serial numbered guns were ordered from Auto Mag by High Standard. All 135 were to be 6.5", .44AMP guns in field grade condition. Don said that no other calibers or barrel lengths were ordered. The eventual production was 134 H prefix guns, 108 in .44AMP and 26 in .357AMP.
The exclusive distribution rights for the Auto Mag were then sold to Lee Jurras sometime before September of 1974. The prevailing story was that the factory was stuck with many barrels already marked High Standard and they put them on A prefix serial numbered frames to use them up. Although this is how the gun left the factory, these guns are a mismatch of barrel to frame because High Standard never commissioned them. A 1998 book by James Spacek titled Hi-Standard Pistols & Revolvers 1951 – 1984 revealed that several thousand A prefix serial numbers were reserved in High Standards books for assignment of Auto Mag serial numbers. A thorough investigation of High Standards records by John J. Stimson Jr. shows that exactly 134 H prefix Auto Mags were sold by High Standard in 1974. The records also show that 911 "A" prefix Auto Mags went through High Standards books in 1974 and 1975.
1) There is no evidence of a High Standard ad campaign to sell A prefix Auto Mags.
2) There is evidence that the TDE El Monte factory did have an ad campaign and did in fact sell High Standard Auto Mags during this period of time.
3) Lee Jurras was the exclusive worldwide distributor of Auto Mags during this period of time, not High Standard and not the factory.
What purpose might have been served by entering the serial numbers in the serial number log if High Standard in fact did not sell them?
Perhaps the factory was selling guns out of the back door to circumvent Lee Jurras' exclusive distribution rights, but why the High Standard records entries?
5. Barrels made to deceive - High Standard
Over the years custom highly polished barrels in different calibers and lengths have been seen with High Standard markings. Based on the author's interview with Don Mitchell, these barrels should be considered nothing other than "made to deceive." A collector at the time ordered several custom High Standard barrels from the factory. These barrels have less than no connection to High Standard.
6. Mismatch of barrel to frame? - Lee Jurras
While Lee Jurras was a distributor of Auto Mags he produced many beautiful
custom guns. There were:
235 Custom Model 100's Custom Hunters .44AMP, .41JMP & .357AMP
11 Custom Model 200's Internationals .357AMP
1 Custom Model 200 International Bicentennial .357AMP
9 Custom Model 300's Alaskans .44AMP
5 Custom Model 400's Backpackers .44AMP & .357AMP
5 Custom Model 500's Grizzly's .44AMP
2 Custom Model 600's Condors .44AMP
1 with no model number Cougar .30AMP
2 with no model number Metallic Silhouettes .41JMP & .357AMP
While Lee held the exclusive distribution rights, he used "LEJ" as the
prefix in his serial numbers. After Lee gave up his exclusive distribution
rights, he used standard "A" prefix serial numbered frames on his
custom guns.
Apparently, the factory sold Lee Jurras marked guns and barrels that did not go
through Lee's hands. The barrels on these guns have Lee's lion's head but do not
contain the "Custom Model 100" markings as the Lee Jurras distributed
barrels did. They also did not come with Lee's custom zebra wood grips or the
"Gun-Ho" case.
The author does not know what arrangements the factory made, if any, with Lee to
distribute these Jurras marked "A" prefix serial numbered guns.
Again, this appears to be a mismatch of barrel to frame. If Lee authorized these
guns, then they would be completely legitimate. They are still considered to be
worth less than a Jurras distributed gun.
7. Custom Barrels - Kent Lomont
Kent Lomont was another Auto Mag distributor who also sold a line of custom
barrels. The barrels that Kent sold had his very distinctive animal markings.
The Groundhog .22LMP
The Fox .25LMP
The Cougar .30LMP
The Antelope .357AMP
The Grizzly .41JMP
The Bison .44AMP
.45ACP Magnum
8. Custom guns - Bicentennials
In 1976 Harry worked out a deal with B & B sales to create 100 Bicentennial guns. One hundred 8.5", fully ribbed .357AMP barrels were manufactured by the factory for the job. Larry Grossman, at the factory, then hand made four highly polished guns to Harry's specifications. They were USA1776, USA1777, USA1975 and USA1976. Perhaps because it was so labor intensive to produce the Bicentennial guns, these were the only four made in 1976. In 1977 Harry had an outside contractor, Ed O'Neil, produce six more Bicentennial guns. They had USA100 and up serial numbers. The author has found no complete record of the serial numbers that were used. The Bicentennial guns had engraved markings including a Bicentennial bell. The remainder of the custom barrels were marked TDE / OMC and were sold in field grade condition. B & B Sales never received a single Bicentennial gun and threatened to sue the factory.
9. Custom barrels - .45 Win Mag
In July of 1980 the factory, AMT, made up two experimental barrels to test the .45 Win Mag cartridge. Throughout the eighties the author distributed over 100 of these barrels for the factory. The earliest of these AMC Covina barrels came with a Behlert rear sight assembly. The later ones were fitted with Millett rear sight assemblies. The author, as a factory distributor, commissioned several custom barrels from the factory in .45 Win Mag, .44AMP and .41JMP. Some of these custom barrels were highly polished, Mag-na-ported and fitted with scope mounts. A few had laurel wreaths electro etched on either side of the AMC Covina markings.
Mismatch of barrel to frame-General
The serial number ranges used by Auto Mag are not completely reliable in
determining what markings the barrel should have. Great groups of numbers were
skipped to make it appear that production was farther along than it actually
was. Custom numbers could be purchased from the factory and might only contain
the owner's initials. Generally, Pasadena guns run into the three thousands,
North Hollywood guns run into the five thousands and TDE El Monte guns run into
the eight thousands. Distributors, dealers and collectors have switched barrels
and frames for many reasons. A five thousand serial numbered frame with a
Pasadena Barrel could be considered to be a mismatch of barrel to frame. This
would be especially true if the frame did not contain a Pasadena bolt, etc.,
etc. There have been cases of North Hollywood guns first being sold with A017000
serial numbers. Receipts and interviews with the first owners should resolve any
mismatch questions.
Protect your investment by getting important statements in writing.
Lunch Box Guns
While working gun shows, the author has encountered Auto Mags that were not finished at the factory. These guns are referred to as lunch box guns because a lunch box is used for smuggling the required parts out of the factory by dishonest employees. The serial number markings are either missing or of a completely different style from production guns. Without documentation, lunch box guns are to be avoided.
Reproduction or Fake Parts
The main reason that the Auto Mag was not a financial success was that it
just cost too much to produce. It stands to reason that not much money can be
made by making reproduction parts.
The author has cast many styles of Auto Mag grips over the years. They have
always been sold by the author as reproduction grips. Some individuals have
resold these grips as original factory or factory custom grips. When these
reproduction grips are sold as original grips they become fakes. Words mean
things.
Some very fine reproduction magazines have been made by Krasne's Triple K Mfg.
in San Diego, California. They have been offered in black and a hard chromed
finish. Some people have resold them as factory original magazines.
Again, a fine reproduction part becomes a fake due to a false representation.
Years ago a large numbers of un-welded magazine shells were put up for sale by
the sheet metal shop that made them. A small time Auto Mag parts dealer bought
them. He made his own very crude followers, had the shells welded and then sold
them as original Auto Mag magazines. These magazines are fakes.
Mag-na-porting
The Mag-na-porting of a barrel really helps to reduce recoil and muzzle jump. Lee Jurras and other distributors have provided this on many of their custom barrels. If an individual sent a barrel in to have it Mag-na-ported he has reduced the value of his gun. Mag-na-porting helps the shooter but is a bad thing to the collector if the barrel was not originally sold with this feature.
Scope Mounts
Scope mounts for the Auto Mag were first offered by Lee Jurras. His earliest Custom Model 200 Internationals were fitted with a custom mount made by Kent Lomont using a Leupold M8 2X scope. Later Internationals, and some of Lees' other custom guns, used Jim Harringshaw's Maxi-Mount scope mount. While a distributor of barrels, the author fitted barrels with both the Maxi-Mount and the T.S.O.B. mount made by J.D. Jones. Unless the scope mount is a clamp-on type, the barrel has to be drilled and tapped to accept the mount. Again, if a scope mount was not fitted to a barrel by a distributor and originally sold this way, the collector value of the barrel has been compromised.
Polished Barrels
Some individuals have taken it upon themselves to hand polish their guns.
The factory would sometimes polish barrels and frames at the request of a
customer. The difference is that after polishing the barrel, the factory would
electro-etch the markings back onto the barrel assembly. Backyard polishing jobs
will usually entirely remove the markings on the receiver.
Sometimes only a shadow of the factory markings can be seen. Guns found in this
condition are worth much less than ones with un-modified finishes.
In Conclusion
In conclusion, there are factory custom, dealer or distributor custom, and
customer modified custom guns and barrels. If you were to use custom cars as an
analogy, a car customized in someone's driveway is worth far less than a factory
or distributor customized car. The same holds true with guns. If you are
inclined to buy a custom gun or barrel, insist on letters of authenticity,
receipts or some other documentation.
What do you say to the guy who asks, "Is it original"?
You respond, "What do you mean by original?"
The author wishes to acknowledge the following sources for some of the
information used in this writing:
1) L.E. Jurras' Auto Mag Newsletters
2) Handguns magazine 2001 Annual, "Lee Jurras and his Auto Mags," by
Rick Maples
3) Hi Standard Pistols & Revolvers 1951 - 1984, by James Spacek
Five Ways To Break Your Auto Mag --- September 1999
by Bruce Stark
As soon as people started shooting Auto Mags, the guns started breaking.
The inventor, Harry Sanford, always blamed the Auto Mag's bad reputation on
people shooting ammo that was way too hot for the gun. "If they wanted a
rifle, they should have bought one," Harry would say.
1. Bad Ammo
The Auto Mag was designed to shoot a semi-auto counterpart to the .44 Magnum. A
240 grain bullet moving at about 1250 feet per second will provide enough recoil
to reliably cycle the gun and not beat it to death. There have been
several articles published over the years containing Auto Mag reloading
specifications. Most of these loads are too hot for the gun. Some of the
published loads were intended for large game hunting, and weren't to be used for
a weekend's plinking. The older articles were written at a time when a new bolt
could be had for $45!
With continued use of hot ammo you will see the bolt lugs chipping or bending
rearwards, and the accelerator will begin to mushroom the frame where it strikes
it. The mushrooming of the frame can be so severe that it will prevent the
barrel from being removed from the frame.
The first available loaded ammo came from CDM in Mexico. The only way to get
this ammo to reliably cycle the gun is to lie about it. CDM ammo has dirty
powder which makes it inconsistent, and it quickly dirties up your gun with
unburned powder. The next available loaded ammo came from Norma in Sweden. Norma
ammo is too hot and can't be recommended for extended use in the Auto Mag.
Both CDM and Norma ammo have become very collectable and are too expensive to
shoot nowadays. Through the years Lee Jurras, Kent Lomont, Bob Beal and
several others have cooked up and sold their own Auto Mag ammo. It too has
become very collectable. Some of it is hot and some of it is not. Never shoot
"mystery" ammo if you value your gun.
Ammunition with the wrong case dimensions for your chamber is also bad ammo. A
case that is too long will usually prevent the gun from going into battery. A
case that is too short for your chamber can damage your gun.
A properly seated round with the correct case length will allow the bolt face
to sit flush up against the rear of the case. If the case is too short and the
base of the case is not up against the bolt face, the case will recoil into the
bolt face, piercing the primer and maybe breaking the extractor. Sometimes the
spent brass will show an indent where it has slammed into the ejector.
A .357 AMP case of the proper length, but with an improperly located shoulder,
can behave the same as a case that is too long or too short. .357 AMP
brass must be tailored to your chamber. Know what you are shooting.
2. Loose Recoil Rods
The Auto Mag's recoil rods screw into heli-coils that are located in the cocking
piece. The type of heli-coil is a 10-32 screw-lock type. The locking feature of
the heli-coil lessens with each removal and replacement of the rods. If any
lubricant gets into the heli-coil area, it will also lessen the locking feature.
If the rods become too loose, they will allow the cocking piece to tilt
backwards during recoil. When this happens the top ear on the back of the bolt
will be broken off, or the top of the cocking piece will be broken out, or both.
The heli-coil area must be kept clean and dry. After every magazine of ammo that
is shot, the recoil rods should be checked to see if they are coming loose. If
the recoil rods need to be tightened after every magazine fired, you need new
heli-coils to be installed into your cocking piece. Loctite is a bad idea
because you could unscrew the recoil rods and find the heli-coils attached to
the end of them. Keep those recoil rods tight!
3. Mag Slam
The Auto Mag's magazine will hold seven rounds. Loading the sixth and seventh
round into the magazine can be very difficult. When loading the seventh round
into the magazine you will notice that the spring is almost fully compressed. If
the bolt is forward in the gun and a full magazine is inserted into the frame,
the top round will press into the bottom of the bolt. If you push the magazine
into the frame further, to engage the magazine latch, you will compress the
magazine spring even more. If you were to slam a fully loaded magazine into a
gun with the bolt forward, the chances are pretty good that you will break the
floorplate out of the magazine. On original magazines the floorplate is only
welded on three sides. Most people only load the magazine with five rounds, and
don't slam in a loaded magazine like they are in combat.
4. Bolt Slam
It's not a good idea with any semi-auto weapon to manually feed a round into the
chamber and drop the bolt into battery on top of it. The first concern is that
the firing pin could come forward when the bolt stops, and the round could go
off. With the Auto Mag there is a further concern that you could break the
extractor doing this. The extractor slams into the rim of the chambered round
and must pivot upwards and then back down to capture the rim. There is a cut in
the receiver, barrel extension, specifically made to receive the extractor as it
pivots upwards to capture the rim of the chambered round. If this cut is
mislocated, or filled with dirt, there is no place for the extractor to go.
Also, the whole bolt is rotating while it's trying to pivot and capture the rim
of a round that is stationary and seated in the chamber.
5. Poor Lubrication
Stainless steel requires special lubricants. A standard mineral oil will cause
stainless steel to gall or catch due to friction. Nowadays there are several
off- the-shelf gun oils for stainless steel guns. This wasn't the case when the
Auto Mag was first introduced. Then and now people will experiment with exotic
oils in their Auto Mags. Some of these oils give great results, but there are
concerns other than just a smoothly functioning gun. It might not be all that
healthy to have a fine mist of automatic transmission fluid blown back into your
face. Some lubes will lock up your gun at temperatures below freezing and others
will coagulate with time.
If you don't know what lubricant, or what combination of lubricants, have been
used on your Auto Mag, it's a good idea to strip all the lubricants out of the
gun. This is best done with a good carburetor cleaner such as Gumout. Remove the
grips beforehand so that they won't react to the harsh chemicals.
After a thorough inspection, a modern lubricant can be applied. Two very good
lubricants are Break-Free and FP-10. Do not oil the heli-coils, the firing pin
or the firing pin spring. Do not forget to oil the accelerator.
Closing
If you plan on shooting your Auto Mag I have listed the most common ways to
damage the gun. Of course you could always just drop your Auto Mag onto a pile
of rocks and break the rear sight assembly. The author has personally damaged an
Auto Mag using the first three methods, as well as dropping the gun onto a pile
of rocks. Learn from other's mistakes.
If you don't plan on shooting your Auto Mag, the worst thing you can do to the
gun is to leave it in the case it came in. The foam used by the factory in the
black plastic Auto Mag gun case will deteriorate into a black goo that will
literally eat away at the stainless steel. It's the pits.
Auto Mag Cartridges --- March 1999
by Bruce Stark